Time Spent With Emily Is Time Well Spent

In this first-of-a-kind double feature episode of "A Pane In The Glass Podcast" I welcome back Emily Riley, elite athlete (curling) and Mental Performance Consultant. It was simply time to catch up with Emily, with no planned agenda for our midsummer chat but one quickly emerged about how quadrennial planning has affected curling and that morphed into a discussion about the culture of sport.  When we finished our chat more than 45 min. had elapsed which prompted me to make this week's episode that aforementioned "double feature". The topic switch occurred at the 27:30 mark. Enjoy!

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:17

Welcome once again to another episode of a Payment Glass Podcast. This is your host, Bill Shearhart, Charter Professional Coach with Coaches of Canada, coming to you once again from my home in Grand Bend, Ontario, Canada, on the ancestral land of the Kettle and Stony Point First Nations. When I began this podcast four and a half years ago, I sought the help of a friend and an expert. I've mentioned Terry O'Reilly on a number of occasions. His podcast, Under the Influence, is one of the best that you can ever listen to. It's about marketing and advertising. Terry speaks so well. And he gave me some helpful hints. And one of those hints was, Bill, try to keep it around 20 minutes in length. Well, as you can see, sorry, Terry, I kind of exceeded the 20-minute mark by about 20 minutes. But I think you will uh realize why I've done that. My guest, once again, I think Emily Riley has been my guest perhaps uh the the most uh number of times of any guest, and uh she is a wonderful mental performance consultant, started as a fantastic uh junior-age curler in La Belle Provence, and uh on to uh national and and international acclaim. She has uh spoken with me uh on a number of occasions, uh just kind of, you know, two people talking about not necessarily just curling, but sport and life in general. Well, that's what's happened this time. And even though we didn't really have an agenda to start with, it really did come down into two parts, with the first part talking about what life is like with a competitive elite curler, now that we think in terms of quadrennials and how that has changed the sport and especially its preparation. And then we morphed into one of my favorite topics, and we've heard myself and some sound bites talking about the culture of sport, how important it is. And again, the analogy that I use in the episode is that yeah, but to try to identify it and do something with it and make it work better for you, it's like trying to nail jello to the wall. So this is a summertime chat between Emily and myself, and you may wish to listen to it in parts. And so I'm making this a double feature. So I won't be coming to you with a new episode for two weeks. Uh so you can uh give your ears a bit of a rest. You may want to listen to it in its entirety, but I won't see you again, as I said, for a two-week period. So without any more introduction, once again, help me welcome Emily Riley to the microphone of Up Hate in the Glass podcast. Emily, we're at the beginning of another quadrennial uh with an eye to uh chemony. Do I have that right? It's in in in uh in France, it's chemony, uh that's the the next Winter Olympic Games. And for our sport, we see and hear all the time that teams are forming and they make a commitment to one another and perhaps to sponsors, family and friends, to commit to a quadrennial. What's what's that like, Emily, from your perspective?

SPEAKER_01 4:14

Yeah, it's there's a lot that goes into it, right? Like you're um finishing off a quad and starting to think like what do you individually want to do for the next four years? And uh what are you willing to commit to? And how does this fit into your life plans? Four years is a long time, and most people don't really know what the next four years are gonna look like. And uh to j to dive into a big commitment like that, you know, it takes a lot of reflection on the individual part, and then you have to talk to your teammates or perhaps uh new teammates and and come up with what everybody's willing to commit to for four years. So it's pretty intense, I think, for a lot of players. And um, it's a big commitment, like four years, uh, especially a lot of the top players in our sport are in that kind of early 30s, mid-30s, late 30s. And those that's a busy time in your life where people are going through a lot of life changes, and you see in the last cycle, certainly a lot of families being formed. So there's a lot to think about, uh, people's jobs and um, you know, how how their partners feel about them committing this much time to being away. There's a lot that goes into it. Certainly not an easy, um, an easy decision to make, but it could be also really exciting. Like it's a fresh start for people to start fresh and decide how they want to go about the next four years.

SPEAKER_00 5:37

And I think that kind of four-year commitment now has entered into uh U18, because the term now we don't say juniors quite so much anymore. Uh you have a lot of experience working with that demographics. So, how do uh younger than next gen, okay, the U18s, uh what are what are you hearing from them as far as what they see in the future? Uh, perhaps not for a commitment quite yet, but well, how how do they see things in the next uh you know four to eight years from their perspective?

SPEAKER_01 6:16

I think at the U18 level, a lot of them are building a little bit on the shorter term, um, with you know some goals in mind of maybe how they would like to do at the U20 level in a few years. So they're building towards that kind of an outcome. But I don't think the teams are committing as much a four-year cycle together. Uh, but there are some teams that are trying to build over several years. Like they are going in with that intention, but you're in a time of your life too where you're in school and um athletes are playing different sports. And uh, you know, it's hard to ask a 16-year-old or 17-year-old to commit to the next four years of their life as well. So I I don't think they're all thinking of it in quadrannuals, but they are thinking about like where are we trying to go? And, you know, if that's where we want to be in four years, like on the podium at U-20 Nationals, then what does that look like this year? You know, what are some benchmarks we want to hit now? Uh, but I don't think they're thinking as far ahead as uh the Olympics, or certainly it's maybe more of a dream than a goal at that stage, because once again, you've no idea where they're gonna go to university or what's gonna come next.

SPEAKER_00 7:21

And it's a lot of pressure to put on a teenager to start thinking about that at that age, I would say has the um the workload, maybe that's not the best word here, but it is it a little bit different now being a scholastic athlete. There were a couple of episodes not that long ago on the podcast where I talked about scholastic athletes. Uh, has that changed at at all over the in in your experience over the past number of years, uh balancing school and uh an athletic career? And it could be uh, you know, in music and dance or you know, whatever. It don't have to be just you know sports. But uh what's it like being a scholastic athlete right now from the scholastic athletes with whom you have worked?

SPEAKER_01 8:08

I think over the years, there's been more and more uh opportunities for athletes to play their sport while they're in school. So different programs that are allowing them to do like sports studies and uh giving them a bit more freedom for when they get their work done so they can go and train and practice and compete. Uh, and then you're also seeing with online uh the now this whole online schooling or online uh Zoom and all this kind of stuff that uh a lot of athletes are able to benefit from doing things at a distance. And I think that's been a huge bonus for a lot of athletes to say, like, okay, I could take my class while I'm on the road. You feel like you have a bit more flexibility, or maybe you're not falling as far behind, which is nice. But uh the experience of a student athlete, it's it's hard. Like they're trying to manage a lot of different moving parts. Um, it's certainly tough on the well-being, tough on the social circles because you're balancing school, homework, training, being away all the time. Some of them are working part-time jobs, uh, and then also trying to have a social life. So it's it's certainly a challenge.

SPEAKER_00 9:14

One thing that has been true about the quadrennial packaging is teams that decide that they're not going to stay together, or perhaps you know, they're all going to retire, whatever. But I think this time around, and I think of uh you know old team Tier and Zony, and the same thing with Nicodine, you know, that Oscar is going to take over, skipping, and uh Elena is going to. I'm not sure what the configuration is going to be there. Is it going to be Team Pets now instead of Team Tiranzoni? So we've seen a different dynamic uh with some of those teams. That yes, we're going to commit to another four years, but it's going to be with somewhat different personnel. And the challenges that that um uh those those challenges that they have to face, because uh it's one thing to form a new team with everybody at the same starting position, but now you're going to uh introduce a member or two and try to do that quadrennial. So perhaps some thoughts on that from your perspective.

SPEAKER_01 10:23

Yeah, it's interesting because it's you know, you change one member of a team and the whole team is new. And so I think going into four years, like I said, it's a fresh start. And now you bring a new player in or two new players in. I think you really have to look at it as like we're starting from ground zero. Um, how do we want the next four years to look? And integrating that new person's thoughts and opinions as well, right? That it's not, hey, here's how we've always done it, you know, get on board or get out, uh, but more of a collaborative approach for how do we want to do this together as a team for the next four years. Uh, and so a lot of that is, you know, actually having some hard conversations or not always hard conversations, but just vulnerable conversations about your experience over the last four years and what worked, what didn't work? Okay, let's take the things that worked, let's build on the things that were tough and uh try to start ahead of where we were four years ago, but with everyone's shared experiences on the table.

SPEAKER_00 11:21

Is the challenge greater for the members of the team integrating a player or two, or is the challenge greater for the new players joining the team? Or might that go back and forth, depending upon the personnel on the team? But is there a is there a formula that you can plug in? This is how you do it. I suspect not.

SPEAKER_01 11:48

They're just experiencing different challenges, right? Like uh, I think for the players that are returning, it's letting go of how you've always done something. Because, you know, like I think of a team like Alina Pets that's had so much success. She has to be able to let go of, okay, I don't have Sylvanna with me anymore. And I have to kind of embrace these new personalities coming in and new perspectives and not necessarily do things how I've always done it. You know, so kind of like letting go of a bit of control or being willing to do things in a new way, even when you had a formula that worked really well. So kind of that open-mindedness. And then for the new players coming in, it could be really intimidating, you know, to be the one person joining such a great squad, you know, the one person that doesn't already have a strong connection with everybody on the team, or certainly doesn't go as deep. Like if you look at Nicholas Adine's team, I mean, those guys have been playing together for so long that uh there's there's just gonna be some inside jokes that you might not understand. You know, you weren't there for some of those stories. So being, you know, willing to kind of be vulnerable and be the new person in that team and have to build new relationships with every single person in there, that's a real challenge. You know, and then for the players that are returning, it's like, how can you make that person's transition easier and actually go out of your way to get to know them and make them feel like they're an equal part in this team and not just some straggler that came in and has to start abiding to your way of doing things.

SPEAKER_00 13:23

Well, here's the thought coming right out of left field is that is it different for a four-person team, and then in the context of four-person team, men versus women, or with mixed doubles. So the reason I say this, you know, do the math. If if you've got a new member on your mixed doubles team, that's half the team. Yeah, I'm really quick with these math things, you speak. Whereas, you know, but face it, it's the it's a different team dynamic because if if if it's a new partner, such as with a mixed doubles team, it's much different if it's one new member on your your uh your your four-person team.

SPEAKER_01 14:07

Different experiences for sure. I think uh a mixed doubles team, it's like there's only one dynamic to manage, you know. There's not like uh an outside influence really playing in there. So it's you getting to know one person, which has its upsides and it has its drawbacks, where you know you only have to get to know one person, but also you're relying on one other person. In a four-person team, you could go to one person for one thing, you could get something from someone else. Like there's a lot more variety in the strengths across the four. Everyone brings something different, and uh, but at the same time, now you're a four-person dynamic, you know? So there's one person could be off that day, that could affect the whole dynamic. So the the number of variables goes up, right?

SPEAKER_00 14:50

Is the challenge greater um as far as a starting point? So you've you've you've had a player who for whatever reason has decided to probably retire. So you you have a new player. Where do you start? Do you do you start with uh team dynamics? Do you start with the nuts and bolts about how from a strategy tactics perspective? So is there a common starting point? How do you get the ball rolling from your experience?

SPEAKER_01 15:21

Yeah, I would say it starts just with a conversation on what everyone's looking for, like before you've made that commitment to each other. What do you want to get out of the next four years? You know, so for some people, it could, you know, everyone could say, I want to go to the Olympics in four years, but for one person that might look like playing eight events a year and practicing a ton as a team and living in the same city and really committing to I don't know, fitness, just as one point. Another team might say, like, no, I think I want to go to the Olympics in four years, and I think it's gonna take playing 16 events and you know, getting to a point where um we have tons of sponsorship and we can live off of this, or you know, our part our jobs are part-time and we're fully going all in on curling. So two teams said they they wanted the same goal, but their vision for how they want to get there is really different. And if that's not aligned from the start, you're gonna bump up against a lot of tough conversations and you might not find alignment there. So I think it's really important to not just talk about, okay, what are your goals for the next cycle, but what do you actually think it's gonna take to get there and and what path do you want to take to get there? And if there's some alignment there, then okay, let's continue the conversation. Um, and assume, you know, let's assume those people agree and they start um commit to playing together, then it would be, I think the next step is sitting down and committing to your goals, putting them on paper, talking about the path to get there, what do we want this to look like as a team and individually? But then farther from that is what do our values as a team? What do those values look like? You know, what do we think is important on this journey? So it's not just about what we want to achieve, but it's how do we want to achieve it? So is it important for us to have fun doing this, or is it important for us to um, you know, prioritize our families through all of this, or is it like win at all cost kind of value system? What does that look like for us? And what does that look like in action? You know, if I say fun is important to me, well, maybe fun it just means I want to smile and have fun on the ice, or it means I want to do all the team activities with the other teams every night. You know what I mean? Like it could look very different for me versus for you. So we talk about what would that look like in action? Just that I think is an incredible activity for a new team to do. You know, just have alignment. What kind of team do we want to be? And what does that look like in action? This becomes your team compass. You know, how do we show up in different moments? If we're at junior nationals, do we go to the players' lounge every night or we go into bed to sleep so we're super focused and energized tomorrow? There's no right answer. There might be a middle ground, even let's go for an hour and then get some sleep. But if as a team you've committed to fun and enjoying the experience, you're gonna go to the player's lounge and you're gonna get what you wanted out of this experience. If you've committed to like winning at all cost or like absolute commitment to uh focus, well, you're gonna go to sleep, you're not gonna go to the player's lounge, we're not gonna see you until after you win the finals, right? And you hear stories like that all the time. So if you're clear on what you guys want, your how you want to live this journey, it becomes a lot easier to create that journey.

SPEAKER_00 18:42

And now professionalism uh has now entered the mix uh with Rock League, because now part of the uh the annual uh commitment uh uh is participating at Rock League. And of course, now that's that's different because you're not with your team because you know the whole concept of Rock League is that that you get to play with other people, but you're playing for significant dollars. So what do you think that uh impact may or may not have on the quadrennial planning? You think that makes the difference, or is it just too early to know and just have to wait and see what happens?

SPEAKER_01 19:25

I'm definitely gonna be watching and see how this all unfolds and affects different teams. I don't know. I think it comes back to like what are those athletes' goals? You know, I would suspect that maybe there's some athletes that have been in the sport for a long time and now are seeing an opportunity to make money off of it and they're excited by that, but maybe they're not that driven to get back to the Olympics or to do everything that is required to get back there. And maybe there's other players that, you know, are still really striving towards that dream of going to the Olympics. So for them, Rock League is like a nice way to make some extra money and live this experience, but it's not the goal, it's not the focus for them. And I think probably a lot of players fall into that second category. So they're gonna be my my my guess is that they're gonna be prioritizing their four-person team. You go to Rock League, like you get this cool experience, it's a chance to grow the sport, but it's not I don't think that's their main priority. Uh, or I don't know that it necessarily scratches kind of the itch that they have in their sport to uh go to the Olympics. But I don't know, it depends on the person, right? Some people are more money-driven, like some people are really curling because that a couple of teams up there at the top are making maybe some decent salaries and sort of playing, and uh they want to continue doing that.

SPEAKER_00 20:40

Well, I think Nick is probably a good example of that because he is no longer playing on team Nicholas and Dean, but he is gonna play Rock League. And so his priorities have changed, and I don't think anybody looks at Nick as a second-class citizen in any way, shape, or form. Yeah. So yeah, it's gonna be it's gonna be very interesting. And then from the whole you know, coaching perspective, I wonder how um when when teams form together and make a commitment for a quadrennial, um, you're asking a coach or uh coach being part of a performance enhancement team, uh, getting help from a lot of uh you know professionals. And then of course, where does sponsorship come into all of this? Uh does that does that uh landscape change because you're now a four-person team, you have this common goal of uh, let's say to the Olympics, now you've got to look after the the dollars and cents and make sure that you can, you know, financially make it happen. Is that those challenges that we know they still exist, but but do those challenges change as well?

SPEAKER_01 21:54

Yeah, like I mean the sponsorship uh piece is like it's a tough part of being a competitive. curling team because you're self-funded and it's ex a season that's really expensive, especially if you're playing a lot of events. There's no guarantees you're gonna make any money back. And um most people that I know are not willing to dish out $10 to $15,000 to start their season uh while working alongside all of this, right? Or maybe sacrificing dollars from from their job because they're away competing, you know? So sponsorship's definitely a big part of the offseason prep uh for these teams. And you know I think the teams at the top seem to be doing a great job at, you know, getting some great sponsors, I think uh across the board though, I think it's a it's tough. It's a tough part of being a competitive team. And what I've found is I think it was probably easier to get sponsors when you're in juniors because companies are supporting uh youth sport. And when you're in your mid to late 20s or 30s and you're not the top team in your country or top three team in your country, it's like you're asking companies to fund your weekend hobby. You know, to you it's important and you're chasing a big goal and and it feels meaningful. But to that company it's like, well what do you have to show for it? And am I just funding a 30 year old's curling hobby here? You know, so I I do think that that's maybe uh a challenge in in the adult side of things uh compared to the youth sport. You know, companies look great when they're supporting teenage curlers, teenage athletes, right?

SPEAKER_00 23:35

I've had more than just one friend who has uh suggested to me that curling has become an elitist sport. Yes, it's great to talk about people starting at the club level and come and have fun and you'll join a I'll learn the curl league and all the rest of it. But if you really want to play at the highest level there's this absolutely huge gap from a serious club curler who wants to do well in play downs, possibly play for a provincial or territorial championship and get to a national and the teams that you see on television that the gap is huge and it's getting wider. And so when they say well you know you you you you're you're really talking about an elite sport here now Bill um you know I roll my eyes a little bit and think well you know I don't know if I have much of a defense against that and and do I need a defense against that I mean that's the way that the the sport has evolved and I think there are other sports that have done exactly the same thing. But certainly the landscape has changed no question about it.

SPEAKER_01 24:46

But it's interesting when you hear stuff like that because like I do agree that it's really hard to break into the top and there is a huge gap. But like if you look at a sport like tennis like it's so hard to break into the top 10 and that's with people that are really doing the work and self-funding. In curling there's a lot of people kind of on that lower end that you know and I I've been there too where I'm complaining about some of these things but ultimately like are we all really doing everything that we could be doing to bridge that gap you know there's a lot of low cost ways that you could get a whole lot better at curling. And a lot of the people that are complaining about these things are not on the ice five days a week. And you look at tennis, these people are putting their whole life on hold and probably in debt paying all this money to try to break into the top 100 and it's not profitable until you're in the top 10 in tennis and they make millions of dollars at the top but it just costs them so much to go through their season. So I don't know I I know it's it is tough. It is hard to it every sport is hard to get to the top in every sport requires tons of money to get there and sponsorship and support and there every sport has this middle group that is struggling to break through and it's a bit of a gamble like are you going to invest and get any money back on that investment like a lot of people won't. And uh I think the the teams that are at the top have just committed to finding a way and then also probably got pretty lucky along the way like you know some kind of sponsor that really was willing to invest in them and then a lot of support from maybe their federations or they had the right people around them at the right time that were able to guide them. But like I know tons of young teams that like coaches that are going so out of their way to ask questions to other great coaches or other great players and they're just shooting an email and talking to their network and they're getting all these great insights sometimes for free. Sometimes they're spending some of their sponsor money to do it, but they're investing in like how can I learn and get better with whatever resources I have instead of saying like oh we're a team that we just don't have access to as much support. So we're not going to be able to get there. And like I know it's not fair. There's definitely different teams that have different privileges, right? Like it's definitely not a blank slate. But I do think sometimes I what I've seen anyway is the teams that I see succeeding year after year are finding a way through a lot of these issues that they're coming up against. And the teams that just keep kind of knocking at the door but not breaking through are doing a lot of complaining about you know the landscape of our sport.

SPEAKER_00 27:26

But the they're not really searching for a solution either

The Culture Of Sport

SPEAKER_00 27:30

on the podcast of late I've been uh using some sound bites from from one person in particular his name is uh Simon Senek I'm very impressed with what he talks about and he talks about teams um uh and he talks about the the leadership that's required to foster the culture whether it's in business or sports or you know whatever the field happens to be and the the term that I used just in talking with you before we got started here today that everybody I think puts their hand up and says yeah yeah you know the culture of your sport that's so important and and it's like I think the analogy that I use it's like nailing jello to the wall like yeah yeah we know it's important we don't have any idea how to spot how to foster it and how to make it happen how to protect it you know anytime that I talk to teams now and talk to athletes I I try to direct the conversation to and I'll just flat out say I said well how's what's the culture on your team like and you know the you know the reaction I get crickets oh the culture I well we never talk about it um we I I don't know what to say but well do you think it's important oh yeah I think it's really important so there's something that's really important about your team you don't even know how to talk about it. And of course I'm putting myself into that category which is one of the reasons that I'm going to try to get as much information as I can and um you and I talked about last year's Blue Jays and I I made the comment that you know I I'm a baseball fan I've always been a baseball fan but that was that was just a good team that just happened to you know get you know almost right to the the door of winning a a a World Series a World Championship and they did it because the culture on that team was was different from so many of their opponents and the players that have now recently left the Blue Jays for various reasons you you could tell that there was it wasn't just a business decision. Take Kevin Gossman for example okay he's you know a Chicago Cub but it was evident that he was totally invested into his teammates the Dalton Varshow who's now with uh Houston Astros and of course you know the day that he's traded they play the Blue Jays and the affection that was shown by the the Blue Jays that came and and you know gave him a big hug that you know even though it was you know in a professional environment they had a culture that brought the best out of one another because that's one thing that's true about a baseball team that excels and gets to the World Series is your your best players and we hear this all the time the best players in your team have to be the best players in the playoffs but you have to have at least three other players who are having their best year but they did it at the same time you know so so so the best players on the Blue Jays were the best players in the World Series and you know the the uh the the the American League Championship series and the division and all that sort of thing. But then you know there were three other players that had their best years. And does that just happen? They just happened to catch you know lightning in a bottle so to speak and how how do you do that on a team? You're an elite athlete you've experienced it. So I I'm interested in your thoughts on the culture of sport from your perspective.

SPEAKER_01 31:41

I think the best uh example we have of this is the New Zealand All Blacks the rugby team and uh they're the team that has won the most out of any team in the world across all sports over the last hundred years. Okay so like by far and wide the most successful sporting team in the world. And they've done it for such a long extended period of time. And why is that? And there's this awesome book on them called Legacy if anyone wants to know more about team culture like that is the book go read it. Um what was the title Legacy and uh so essentially what's really cool about the All Blacks is that they have a super strong team culture that's been passed on from generation to generation and at the core of that uh culture is character over talent. So when they go to choose their members of their team they first pick on character and then on skill first they pick great people and then they picked the they picked the more skilled of the great people so just there like if you want any evidence that character and team culture are important to the success of your team the most successful team in the world picks on character first.

SPEAKER_00 33:05

What's interesting you say that so just let me jump in very quickly here the last episode was a collection of sound bites and one of them is the soundbite is called talent is overrated it's only a few minutes in length but it's a a world class athlete who who realized relatively late in her career that yeah talent is overrated that character is really more important.

SPEAKER_01 33:36

So sorry for jumping in yeah no I'm right there with you so what's really cool about these all blacks though is that this set of kind of values and principles that they have that was you know established a long time ago gets passed down every generation. So there's all these different things like in the book they talk about all these different principles that they have but one of them being sweep the sheds. So every player is assigned a different day to sweep the sheds in other words clean up the locker room. So you're never too big to do the little things. And then um what's another one? They have this principle of leave the jersey in a better place. So you're not playing for the glory of your name on the back you're playing for the glory of the New Zealand all blacks and trying to leave your jersey in a better place for the next generation that comes after you. So they're playing for something bigger than themselves. They're playing for each other. So essentially oh yeah so what's cool what I think about this is you know when you think about a hundred years like there's nobody in that organization that has been there since the beginning. The whole culture the whole group of people the leadership team the athletes everyone has turned over yet these principles remain and the success of this team continues. This is a super cool example of what happens when you invest in culture over a long period of time. And if you want to start building a better culture in your team I think it starts with back to that activity I just talked about earlier of establishing like what does our team stand for? What are our values? What's important to us? Okay, now what does that look like in action? How do we want to show up as a team when things get hard and then I think the key piece in all this is being really diligent about implementing this day in and day out. So often uh coaches and parents it's easy to get sucked into valuing and reinforcing outcomes that we see right like wow great job you guys won. You know you played so well. That's the more natural thing to highlight and celebrate. But if we're saying culture is the thing that's gonna lead to the success then we need to be reinforcing and highlighting and integrating pieces of the character and the culture side even more than reinforcing outcomes. Because that's what's gonna lead to the outcomes. For example uh like really really oversimplified but a parent who recognizes their kid had a great performance might say hey you had a great game like what did you do to make that happen? How did you show up over the last week to create that result and then they're gonna go and reinforce what the athlete did like wow you were really disciplined. I'm so proud of your discipline so it's I'm not proud of you for being able to make 80% of your curling shots throwing a rock down a sheet of ice I'm proud of you because you're discipline. Ah okay the athlete's registering the discipline is what's important to you so now I want to keep acting in ways that reinforce that I'm a disciplined athlete from a coaching standpoint point same thing like maybe your team had a great game but they like really struggled through that middle portion. So you instead of saying wow we'd go you guys pulled it off or you could say that but then you have to follow it up with I'm so proud of your resilience today. That was really cool. How did you stay so resilient in that moment? Now you recognize that okay that's part of our team DNA you start noticing resilience a few times like wow guys we're we're a resilient team whoa that's got like now you got some legs to stand on when you're in a hard moment because you know you've it's part of your team's DNA. So a lot of it is we got to establish it up front but then how are we implementing this and um reinforcing it as you go and it takes time. Like it's not going to be okay we put values we decide on our values and then tomorrow this is exactly the team we're gonna be it could take years before it's kind of come to fruition and and looks the way you want it to and it's a constant work in progress. You know I I saw recently a team I was working with they did a values activity and they had to write out some statements with those values for their team and keep them on cue cards in their in their curling bags. And so now it becomes this thing where I'm gonna reread my team's values before I even step foot on the ice. And um as a coach you might have some kind of uh I don't know like a token or an award or like a silly sweater or a funny I have a a tie in with New Zealand. So yeah so essentially you know big pictures you got to know who you're even trying to be to try to become that as a team and then the reinforcing piece is huge. You know like if if you're witnessing behaviors that don't align with that they need to be called out and they need to be addressed. And then uh athletes need to take ownership of trying to become that that uh that thing. And if the team was involved in creating those values it's no longer the coach kind of policing it. It's the coach saying you know hey did that align with our team values like does that align with the kind of team that you want to be on if the answer is no and the athlete was involved in that you know I think there's some corrective uh I think they'll self-correct a lot of the time. Uh and beyond that I would just say one final thing is uh if if this is like for the coaches thinking about how to develop the culture of the teams like how are you modeling it? How are you showing up in these moments and modeling the team values so that the athletes are learning from you.

SPEAKER_00 39:01

Well it's interesting you talk about the all blacks of course the the country that we're referring to of course is New Zealand. Well a couple of weeks ago the open golf championship and I I talked about it in an episode I have a bit of a bias here I don't know why they get away with calling that particular open championship the open because there's an open championship in virtually every country but that's I digress. But but the winner was Ryan Fox from New Zealand. And uh it was a huge hugely popular win for quite a variety of reasons. It was a breath of fresh air and one of the congratulations that he received after winning the championship and being the champion golfer of the year came from uh Justin Thomas who who actually is a little bit younger than Ryan Fox but has two major championships and Justin said Ryan remember absolutely every last detail of winning the open championship like all four rounds like just every last detail because you're going to need to pull those details out as you move forward in your career and the point that Justin I think was making and I I've this has been a theme with me is if we go back to curling in particular when you win you make sure you know why you won. And it might not have been X's and O's it might have been what we're talking about here the fact that you know you you you do everything that you can to make sure that each of your teammates has a great game and and when we when we have that perspective we're really talking about the culture of the sport it's nothing to do with you know the great shot or reading the ice or strategy and tactics and things like that. And I think that was the same message that Justin was trying to give to Ryan is you know your resilience and the fact that you you you were going to win that championship and you played like you were going to win that championship and you and you did the last hole at Royal Burkdale is a par four it's the most difficult hole on the golf course. And of all the players playing the final round there had been only four birdies on the on the the 18th hole when Ryan Fox stood on the T he knew that if he parred it he'd probably be in a playoff but if he birdied it he's probably gonna win and so he made the he made the fifth birdie and and you could just see that he was he was resolved to do that. And I just thought that was a great segment that you know JT said remember every last detail because you're gonna need that as you go forward. So and again from New Zealand you know with the all blacks I really like what you said about the I'm I'm gonna get that book.

SPEAKER_01 42:17

Yeah and it's interesting just hearing you talk about recognizing you know what you did at your best uh we talk about that a lot with in my summer program and uh recently I was on a call with a team asking them what are you focused on when you're playing your best and compared to your worst and all of them had this similar line in their answers about how at their worst they're hyper focused on themselves and at their best they're super focused on their teammates and helping their teammates. I thought how cool you know that they were just able to recognize that and say that out loud when you're focused on others you tend to bring out your best and so recreating that back to your team culture, right? If that's part of your team culture and that's how you want to show up every day now you've made a team culture of helping your teammates be better and you're better as a result of it too. And another piece too that's interesting on this whole values and culture piece is like if you step on the ice and the whole goal is winning and your you know your full attention is on um what winning means to you there's a lot of pressure like there's a lot of pressure and uncertainty you can't control the outcome if we could control the outcome we would win every game so if you step out on the ice and you're focused on um you know who you are you know what's important to you you know what your values are whether the game goes well or the game goes terrible you can be all those things like it if it's in your values to be kind and respectful and resilient and enthusiastic you can be all those things whether the game's going well or not. And if you know I am those things and that's where my value comes from and that's what makes me a great person and that's what makes me a great teammate it's such a pressure release because I can be all those things and have a bad game. So now my self-worth my identity is not on the line um because I know I can still be the best version of myself even when I have a a tough game or when our team loses and I know my coach values my resilience I know my parents value my resilience more than let's say the outcome of this game. Okay so I'm just free to go out there and play. It's such a pressure release for athletes when they start thinking that way.

SPEAKER_00 44:38

Emily it's been a breath of summer fresh air chatting with you and I want to thank you very much for for doing this today. Thank you well thanks for having me on again in the vocatic thank you for listening I'd be curious to know how many of you stuck it out for the full well 45 minutes or so and those of you that might have uh said given your ears a bit of a rest and uh broke it up into the two parts Emily mentioned a book about the All Black Statue world renowned rugby team in New Zealand and the name of the book is Legacy and how important character is more so than skill and experience. Well until next time remember that words of that great North American philosopher Charlie Brown don't focus too much on things that make you sad because there are so many things that can make you happy until next time